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	<title>Comments on: Coroner&#8217;s comments on the Hell Ride</title>
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	<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/</link>
	<description>Work is just something I do between bike rides</description>
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		<title>By: Treadly and Me</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/comment-page-1/#comment-910</link>
		<dc:creator>Treadly and Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/#comment-910</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;At this point, I&#039;ve said just about all I want to say about the Hell Ride and the death of James Gould. However, in response to jimmay&#039;s comment, I&#039;d repeat what I said in &lt;a href=&quot;/2006/08/31/james-gould/#the-collision&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;August last year&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;This isn&#039;t about blaming the victim but Mr Gould was a local who regularly walked in the area, so he must have been familiar with how pack riders travel on Beach Rd. So what was peculiar about the conditions when he stepped out onto the road on Saturday?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Then, as now, we are no closer to having an answer.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But I doubt that he stepped into the middle of a moving peloton. The overwhelming evidence, both presented to the Coroner and heard anecdotally, is that the bulk of the pack had stopped at the lights. Presumably, it was this not the green light that indicated to Mr Gould that it was safe to cross. Sadly, the stationary pack would also have impaired his view of cyclists approaching unexpectedly on the outside.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Idle speculation, for what it&#039;s worth.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this point, I&#8217;ve said just about all I want to say about the Hell Ride and the death of James Gould. However, in response to jimmay&#8217;s comment, I&#8217;d repeat what I said in <a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/#the-collision" rel="nofollow">August last year</a>:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>This isn&#8217;t about blaming the victim but Mr Gould was a local who regularly walked in the area, so he must have been familiar with how pack riders travel on Beach Rd. So what was peculiar about the conditions when he stepped out onto the road on Saturday?</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Then, as now, we are no closer to having an answer.</p>

<p>But I doubt that he stepped into the middle of a moving peloton. The overwhelming evidence, both presented to the Coroner and heard anecdotally, is that the bulk of the pack had stopped at the lights. Presumably, it was this not the green light that indicated to Mr Gould that it was safe to cross. Sadly, the stationary pack would also have impaired his view of cyclists approaching unexpectedly on the outside.</p>

<p>Idle speculation, for what it&#8217;s worth.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: jimmay</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/comment-page-1/#comment-909</link>
		<dc:creator>jimmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 06:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/#comment-909</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;While I would not condone the running of red lights, there has been little discussion regarding the role of traffic signals and speed limit signs in affecting traffic behaviour.  James Gould, in a decision that ultimately led to his tragic death, trusted a green man indicating that it was safe to proceed over the evidence of his eyes and ears telling him that there was imminent danger.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;To what extent have so-called safety measures encouraged individuals to trust signals and signage over judgement?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I would not condone the running of red lights, there has been little discussion regarding the role of traffic signals and speed limit signs in affecting traffic behaviour.  James Gould, in a decision that ultimately led to his tragic death, trusted a green man indicating that it was safe to proceed over the evidence of his eyes and ears telling him that there was imminent danger.</p>

<p>To what extent have so-called safety measures encouraged individuals to trust signals and signage over judgement?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/comment-page-1/#comment-908</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/#comment-908</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The &quot;articulated vehicle&quot; claim comes up often amongst a those who have a bit of gravel under their skin. I was waiting for the start at the Southern Vets Road Champs last year at Cora Lynn, it was just after James Gould&#039;s sad death and the guys in the  &quot; more mature&quot; age group seemed divided on whether a bunch should keep &quot;rolling&quot; ...one very vocal past pro and current big head said...&quot; well you know a bunch is the same as a big truck, its a semi, if the front is through the green and the lights change keep rolling... let eveyrone keep rolling, the traffic can wait...&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I gave himn an ear full and he knew he wouldnt get a drag off me that day...(not that it mattered, I blew up on the first climb...)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ve heard this often, and from people who should know better...that is why some attitudes will be hard to change  by education alone, it will take a rude a wakening for some...Like the anti-hoon laws on road dragging in supped up cars , maybe some serious enforcment might shake a few of these thoughts and behaviours out of the old wood.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;articulated vehicle&#8221; claim comes up often amongst a those who have a bit of gravel under their skin. I was waiting for the start at the Southern Vets Road Champs last year at Cora Lynn, it was just after James Gould&#8217;s sad death and the guys in the  &#8221; more mature&#8221; age group seemed divided on whether a bunch should keep &#8220;rolling&#8221; &#8230;one very vocal past pro and current big head said&#8230;&#8221; well you know a bunch is the same as a big truck, its a semi, if the front is through the green and the lights change keep rolling&#8230; let eveyrone keep rolling, the traffic can wait&#8230;&#8221;</p>

<p>I gave himn an ear full and he knew he wouldnt get a drag off me that day&#8230;(not that it mattered, I blew up on the first climb&#8230;)</p>

<p>I&#8217;ve heard this often, and from people who should know better&#8230;that is why some attitudes will be hard to change  by education alone, it will take a rude a wakening for some&#8230;Like the anti-hoon laws on road dragging in supped up cars , maybe some serious enforcment might shake a few of these thoughts and behaviours out of the old wood.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Treadly and Me</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>Treadly and Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/#comment-907</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I hadn&#039;t heard about this &quot;articulated vehicle&quot; argument but I don&#039;t think it takes much to break it down&#8212;it doesn&#039;t hold together logically or intuitively. You only need to ask something like: as a rider toward the rear of a pack, would you swerve to avoid a pothole? Answer &quot;no&quot; and you&#039;re clearly lying, answer &quot;yes&quot; and you&#039;re clearly an autonomous discrete individual not part of an articulated vehicle.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t heard about this &#8220;articulated vehicle&#8221; argument but I don&#8217;t think it takes much to break it down&mdash;it doesn&#8217;t hold together logically or intuitively. You only need to ask something like: as a rider toward the rear of a pack, would you swerve to avoid a pothole? Answer &#8220;no&#8221; and you&#8217;re clearly lying, answer &#8220;yes&#8221; and you&#8217;re clearly an autonomous discrete individual not part of an articulated vehicle.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/comment-page-1/#comment-906</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/2007/07/29/coroners-comments-on-the-hell-ride/#comment-906</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Personal responsibility cannot be abrogated by group dynamics. Saul Raisin Shaw knows this but is claiming otherwise in his defense.  It is an old and invalid assertion that a moving group of bicycles, motor cycles or motor vehicles is akin to an articulated vehicle. The front may enter a green light and the rear may leave a red light. However whereas the articulated vehicle is a single entity, physically and legally, the group of moving vehicles no matter what they are is comprised of separate legal persons in control, each able to make rational and responsible decisions to direct actions and reactions and to observe the laws of the road.
Personal rsponsiblity is the essential failing in the matter of the death of James Gould, the sooner that is accepted the sooner all road users will move forward and act to acquire and apply the necessary skill set and attitude to road use and discharge their responsiblility of keeping a proper look out and maintaining a duty of care towards all other road users.
Nothing less is acceptable.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personal responsibility cannot be abrogated by group dynamics. Saul Raisin Shaw knows this but is claiming otherwise in his defense.  It is an old and invalid assertion that a moving group of bicycles, motor cycles or motor vehicles is akin to an articulated vehicle. The front may enter a green light and the rear may leave a red light. However whereas the articulated vehicle is a single entity, physically and legally, the group of moving vehicles no matter what they are is comprised of separate legal persons in control, each able to make rational and responsible decisions to direct actions and reactions and to observe the laws of the road.
Personal rsponsiblity is the essential failing in the matter of the death of James Gould, the sooner that is accepted the sooner all road users will move forward and act to acquire and apply the necessary skill set and attitude to road use and discharge their responsiblility of keeping a proper look out and maintaining a duty of care towards all other road users.
Nothing less is acceptable.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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