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	<title>Comments on: Disappointed by Coroner&#8217;s findings on Hell Ride death</title>
	<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/</link>
	<description>A Melbourne commuter cyclist</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jim Connell</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-78885</link>
		<author>Jim Connell</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-78885</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Too many cyclists who continue to break road laws
If they think it is too dangerous on Beach Road the simple solution is "Ride on Nepean Highway" No Parked cars there &#38; Early morning rides on weekends have minimal traffic on road&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too many cyclists who continue to break road laws<br />
If they think it is too dangerous on Beach Road the simple solution is &#8220;Ride on Nepean Highway&#8221; No Parked cars there &amp; Early morning rides on weekends have minimal traffic on road</p>
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		<title>By: Treadly and Me</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-22710</link>
		<author>Treadly and Me</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-22710</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I'm not exactly sure how I should "take responsibility" for what happened on the Hell Ride last year. I am &lt;a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/" rel="nofollow"&gt;on record&lt;/a&gt; as saying that:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;I am not a competitive road cyclist, and I've never been on (or even seen) the Hell Ride. This means that I can only comment on this Melbourne tradition from what I know through reputation and report.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I have no connection with the Hell Ride, and therefore feel no inclination to "take responsibility" for what happens on that event. Furthermore I have &lt;em&gt;never&lt;/em&gt; attempted to excuse the action of the individual rider concerned or the Hell Ride as a whole.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As to the claim the I "show no compasion", at the time of Mr Gould's death &lt;a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/" rel="nofollow"&gt;I said&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;The death of James Gould has been much on my mind since I first heard the news on the weekend. As with any senseless road trauma, I am horrified at Mr Gould's death and I have found the eyewitness accounts of Mr Gould's dying moments particularly harrowing.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I respectfully submit that I have &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; lost sight of the fact that an innocent person lost his life.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;On the matter of statistics, I was merely responding to the statistics that the Coroner used.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In respect of the law and punishment, last year when the media was suggesting the cyclist could be charged with manslaughter or conduct endangering life &lt;a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/#the-collision" rel="nofollow"&gt;I said&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;Are either of these the appropriate charges for this cyclist? I really don't know, but I think any fair-minded person would consider a fine of a few hundred dollars a woefully inadequate penalty for negligently causing the death of another human being.&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;Cyclists demand to be treated as equals on the road, and (as I'm fond of saying) certain responsibilities come with the privilege of using the road, so the cyclist should be appropriately charged.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For the record, I still consider that a mere fine is a woefully inadequate penalty.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I accept that suzanne h visited here on the same day that the "pathetic" penalty was imposed on William Raisin-Shaw, and therefore may have been a bit emptional about that. However suzanne h appears to be applying exactly the same broad generalisations and assumptions that some parts of the media and other commentators &lt;a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/#why-public-opinion-matters" rel="nofollow"&gt;used this time last year&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
   1. The Hell Ride, is practically the same as
   2. any other pack ride on Beach Rd, is practically the same as
   3. any pack ride anywhere, is practically the same as
   4. road cyclists generally, is practically the same as
   5. all cyclists

Or more likely, many people would jump straight from 1 to 5: all bloody cyclists are the same.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Hence the bizarre connection with curb-jumpers in Sydney and pedestrian path riders in Brisbane. Am I supposed to "take responsibility" personally for them as well? That's a mighty big ask. But for what it's worth I certainly don't endorse or encourage that sort of behaviour, indeed my message is consistently one of &lt;a href="/2006/02/16/ring-my-own-bell/#thank-you" rel="nofollow"&gt;polite and considerate sharing&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If I am guilty of "boohoo-ing" for cyclists, it's because of attitudes like suzanne h's that wants to lump all cyclists&#8212;including careful and responsible cyclists like me&#8212;into the same category as the reckless and careless. And when people act on such attitudes, the outcome is unlikely to be good.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not exactly sure how I should &#8220;take responsibility&#8221; for what happened on the Hell Ride last year. I am <a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/" rel="nofollow">on record</a> as saying that:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I am not a competitive road cyclist, and I&#8217;ve never been on (or even seen) the Hell Ride. This means that I can only comment on this Melbourne tradition from what I know through reputation and report.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I have no connection with the Hell Ride, and therefore feel no inclination to &#8220;take responsibility&#8221; for what happens on that event. Furthermore I have <em>never</em> attempted to excuse the action of the individual rider concerned or the Hell Ride as a whole.</p>
<p>As to the claim the I &#8220;show no compasion&#8221;, at the time of Mr Gould&#8217;s death <a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/" rel="nofollow">I said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The death of James Gould has been much on my mind since I first heard the news on the weekend. As with any senseless road trauma, I am horrified at Mr Gould&#8217;s death and I have found the eyewitness accounts of Mr Gould&#8217;s dying moments particularly harrowing.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I respectfully submit that I have <em>not</em> lost sight of the fact that an innocent person lost his life.</p>
<p>On the matter of statistics, I was merely responding to the statistics that the Coroner used.</p>
<p>In respect of the law and punishment, last year when the media was suggesting the cyclist could be charged with manslaughter or conduct endangering life <a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/#the-collision" rel="nofollow">I said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Are either of these the appropriate charges for this cyclist? I really don&#8217;t know, but I think any fair-minded person would consider a fine of a few hundred dollars a woefully inadequate penalty for negligently causing the death of another human being.</p>
<p>Cyclists demand to be treated as equals on the road, and (as I&#8217;m fond of saying) certain responsibilities come with the privilege of using the road, so the cyclist should be appropriately charged.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>For the record, I still consider that a mere fine is a woefully inadequate penalty.</p>
<p>I accept that suzanne h visited here on the same day that the &#8220;pathetic&#8221; penalty was imposed on William Raisin-Shaw, and therefore may have been a bit emptional about that. However suzanne h appears to be applying exactly the same broad generalisations and assumptions that some parts of the media and other commentators <a href="/2006/08/31/james-gould/#why-public-opinion-matters" rel="nofollow">used this time last year</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
   1. The Hell Ride, is practically the same as<br />
   2. any other pack ride on Beach Rd, is practically the same as<br />
   3. any pack ride anywhere, is practically the same as<br />
   4. road cyclists generally, is practically the same as<br />
   5. all cyclists</p>
<p>Or more likely, many people would jump straight from 1 to 5: all bloody cyclists are the same.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Hence the bizarre connection with curb-jumpers in Sydney and pedestrian path riders in Brisbane. Am I supposed to &#8220;take responsibility&#8221; personally for them as well? That&#8217;s a mighty big ask. But for what it&#8217;s worth I certainly don&#8217;t endorse or encourage that sort of behaviour, indeed my message is consistently one of <a href="/2006/02/16/ring-my-own-bell/#thank-you" rel="nofollow">polite and considerate sharing</a>.</p>
<p>If I am guilty of &#8220;boohoo-ing&#8221; for cyclists, it&#8217;s because of attitudes like suzanne h&#8217;s that wants to lump all cyclists&mdash;including careful and responsible cyclists like me&mdash;into the same category as the reckless and careless. And when people act on such attitudes, the outcome is unlikely to be good.</p>
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		<title>By: cfsmtb</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-22448</link>
		<author>cfsmtb</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-22448</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;You should have a rethink about your attitudes.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Well if I wasn't in such a jovial mood I'd say that was black humour on your behalf. No one, for a moment, is saying the tragic death of Mr Gould is excusable. The police charged Raisin-Shaw with a traffic offence, which sadly, under the current road laws, is all they could charge him with.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If anything this tragic, totally avoidable incident illustrates the total disconnect between road rights and responsiblities between road users, be they bike rider, motorist or pedestrian.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If there was true equality, cyclists wouldn't be on the back foot, fighting for their rights when incidents occur. For example, type the name of 'Ian Humphrey', 'Matthew Cole or 'Scott Peoples' into the search engine of your choice. Have their loved ones had real justice served yet? No.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Did Raisin-Shaw leave the scene of the incident? No he didn't. Although his defense in court for collective responsibility over personal responsibility is something I find personally abhorrent.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The death of James Gould should of never occured, although in the last 12 months, how many Victorians have been killed on our roads? How many hundreds, if not thousands, have been injured and suffered massive declines in their quality of life? Do we hear all their names, their stories in the media?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Actually, maybe we should, but until then, why not attempt to put this incident into some intelligent perspective over accepting media hyperbole and subjective perceptions as truth.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You should have a rethink about your attitudes.</i></p>
<p>Well if I wasn&#8217;t in such a jovial mood I&#8217;d say that was black humour on your behalf. No one, for a moment, is saying the tragic death of Mr Gould is excusable. The police charged Raisin-Shaw with a traffic offence, which sadly, under the current road laws, is all they could charge him with.</p>
<p>If anything this tragic, totally avoidable incident illustrates the total disconnect between road rights and responsiblities between road users, be they bike rider, motorist or pedestrian.</p>
<p>If there was true equality, cyclists wouldn&#8217;t be on the back foot, fighting for their rights when incidents occur. For example, type the name of &#8216;Ian Humphrey&#8217;, &#8216;Matthew Cole or &#8216;Scott Peoples&#8217; into the search engine of your choice. Have their loved ones had real justice served yet? No.</p>
<p>Did Raisin-Shaw leave the scene of the incident? No he didn&#8217;t. Although his defense in court for collective responsibility over personal responsibility is something I find personally abhorrent.</p>
<p>The death of James Gould should of never occured, although in the last 12 months, how many Victorians have been killed on our roads? How many hundreds, if not thousands, have been injured and suffered massive declines in their quality of life? Do we hear all their names, their stories in the media?</p>
<p>Actually, maybe we should, but until then, why not attempt to put this incident into some intelligent perspective over accepting media hyperbole and subjective perceptions as truth.</p>
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		<title>By: suzanne h</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-22250</link>
		<author>suzanne h</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 02:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-22250</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Get over it and take responsiblity. It's not a matter of comparing stats to car accidents and so forth. Its about taking responsibility for arsehole behaviour.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The man killed someone through irresponsible riding. And here you all are saying boohoo to cyclists. You seem to show no compasion. Quite disgusting really.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It is a pity the law is so lax in this case. He should have been charged with manslaughter and or at least what drivers get charged with - negligence thorugh dangerous driving.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I was a pedestrian in Sydney for over ten years and on a number of  occasions I saw bikes mount curbs and plough into people. The aggressive and sanctimonious attitude of cyclists really got to me.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Now I live in Brisbane and cyclists are continually using pedestrian paths on which they should not. They do not alert pedestrains when they come up quickly behind them and generally treat pedestrian like cars treat cyclist. With complete disdain.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You should have a rethink about your attitudes.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;With that being said, cycling  - when  it is not done by morons who think it is their god given right to behave how they want on the roads - is a great sport.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get over it and take responsiblity. It&#8217;s not a matter of comparing stats to car accidents and so forth. Its about taking responsibility for arsehole behaviour.</p>
<p>The man killed someone through irresponsible riding. And here you all are saying boohoo to cyclists. You seem to show no compasion. Quite disgusting really.</p>
<p>It is a pity the law is so lax in this case. He should have been charged with manslaughter and or at least what drivers get charged with - negligence thorugh dangerous driving.</p>
<p>I was a pedestrian in Sydney for over ten years and on a number of  occasions I saw bikes mount curbs and plough into people. The aggressive and sanctimonious attitude of cyclists really got to me.</p>
<p>Now I live in Brisbane and cyclists are continually using pedestrian paths on which they should not. They do not alert pedestrains when they come up quickly behind them and generally treat pedestrian like cars treat cyclist. With complete disdain.</p>
<p>You should have a rethink about your attitudes.</p>
<p>With that being said, cycling  - when  it is not done by morons who think it is their god given right to behave how they want on the roads - is a great sport.</p>
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		<title>By: Treadly and Me</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-21652</link>
		<author>Treadly and Me</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://treadly.net/2007/07/26/coroners-findings-on-hell-ride-death/#comment-21652</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Despite the clamour surrounding the Hell Ride, I think we are seeing a trend towards more positive stories about cycling, such as &lt;a href="/2007/07/23/this-winter-cycling-is-the-new-black/" rel="nofollow"&gt;this one&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="/2007/07/26/bicycles-are-the-new-cars/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Catherine Deveney's op-ed&lt;/a&gt; and also &lt;a href="/2007/02/27/cycling-goes-mainstream-all-over-the-place/" rel="nofollow"&gt;overseas&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Of course Rob &#38; Co. at &lt;a href="http://www.woj.com.au/" rel="nofollow"&gt;WoJ&lt;/a&gt; follow this more closely under the &lt;a href="http://www.woj.com.au/category/positive-spin/" rel="nofollow"&gt;positive spin&lt;/a&gt; heading, so they would have a better idea than I of whether there actually is a trend.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My sense of it is that as cycling becomes more mainstream, reporting about it will become more sophisticated and nuanced.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despite the clamour surrounding the Hell Ride, I think we are seeing a trend towards more positive stories about cycling, such as <a href="/2007/07/23/this-winter-cycling-is-the-new-black/" rel="nofollow">this one</a>, <a href="/2007/07/26/bicycles-are-the-new-cars/" rel="nofollow">Catherine Deveney&#8217;s op-ed</a> and also <a href="/2007/02/27/cycling-goes-mainstream-all-over-the-place/" rel="nofollow">overseas</a>.</p>
<p>Of course Rob &amp; Co. at <a href="http://www.woj.com.au/" rel="nofollow">WoJ</a> follow this more closely under the <a href="http://www.woj.com.au/category/positive-spin/" rel="nofollow">positive spin</a> heading, so they would have a better idea than I of whether there actually is a trend.</p>
<p>My sense of it is that as cycling becomes more mainstream, reporting about it will become more sophisticated and nuanced.</p>
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