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	<title>Comments on: White line fever</title>
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	<link>http://treadly.net/2006/11/03/white-line-fever/</link>
	<description>Work is just something I do between bike rides</description>
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		<title>By: moz</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2006/11/03/white-line-fever/comment-page-1/#comment-404</link>
		<dc:creator>moz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 02:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/?p=242#comment-404</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There are some very amusing shared paths in Sydney - Pyrmont Bridge, for instance, is a shared path (15m wide) with a posted 10kph speed limit on part of its length (the rest is presumably 60kph based on the roads it connects to :-). However it ends on a footpath at one end (must dismount... no-one does) and broken traffic lights at the other (5 way intersection with 4 sets of lights). This sort of thing is common here.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;WRT &quot;Wheeled recreation device or toy?&quot; they mean skateboards, push-scooters and those infernal combustion engine powered scooters that have no legitimate place to go (as opposed to legal, they&#039;re legal on the footpath even at 30kph, but never on the road). Critical Mass periodically has cops get officious and tell skaters to get off the road.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are some very amusing shared paths in Sydney &#8211; Pyrmont Bridge, for instance, is a shared path (15m wide) with a posted 10kph speed limit on part of its length (the rest is presumably 60kph based on the roads it connects to :-). However it ends on a footpath at one end (must dismount&#8230; no-one does) and broken traffic lights at the other (5 way intersection with 4 sets of lights). This sort of thing is common here.</p>

<p>WRT &#8220;Wheeled recreation device or toy?&#8221; they mean skateboards, push-scooters and those infernal combustion engine powered scooters that have no legitimate place to go (as opposed to legal, they&#8217;re legal on the footpath even at 30kph, but never on the road). Critical Mass periodically has cops get officious and tell skaters to get off the road.</p>
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		<title>By: Treadly and Me</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2006/11/03/white-line-fever/comment-page-1/#comment-403</link>
		<dc:creator>Treadly and Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Nov 2006 01:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/?p=242#comment-403</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don&#039;t think pedaller would have any trouble arguing the case since shared zones and shared paths aren&#039;t the same thing.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s amusing, although not particularly enlightening, to note that the term &quot;shared path&quot; is defined in rule 242: &quot;Travelling in or on a wheeled recreational device or toy on a footpath or shared path&quot;. Wheeled recreation device or toy? What&#039;s that all about?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Incidentally, bicycles are neither &quot;wheeled recreation devices&quot; nor &quot;toys&quot;; they have their own section of the rules: &quot;Part 15 Additional rules fo bicycle riders&quot; (that&#039;s rules 245&#8211;262).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Which neatly brings us to Crowlie&#039;s point about legitimacy. Interesting word &lt;a href=&quot;http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=legitimate&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;legitimate&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;ol&gt;
  &lt;li&gt;according to law; lawful: &lt;i&gt;the property&#039;s legitimate owner.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
  &lt;li&gt;in accordance with established rules, principles, or standards.&lt;/li&gt;
  &lt;/ol&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So, by virtue of their inclusion in the road rules, bicycles are inherently legitimate road vehicles. Clearly Crowlie is riding at is a different connotation: not the legal legitimacy (there&#039;s no room for argument there) but a more informal legitimacy: just being accepted as normal road traffic.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think pedaller would have any trouble arguing the case since shared zones and shared paths aren&#8217;t the same thing.</p>

<p>It&#8217;s amusing, although not particularly enlightening, to note that the term &#8220;shared path&#8221; is defined in rule 242: &#8220;Travelling in or on a wheeled recreational device or toy on a footpath or shared path&#8221;. Wheeled recreation device or toy? What&#8217;s that all about?</p>

<p>Incidentally, bicycles are neither &#8220;wheeled recreation devices&#8221; nor &#8220;toys&#8221;; they have their own section of the rules: &#8220;Part 15 Additional rules fo bicycle riders&#8221; (that&#8217;s rules 245&ndash;262).</p>

<p>Which neatly brings us to Crowlie&#8217;s point about legitimacy. Interesting word <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=legitimate" rel="nofollow">legitimate</a>:</p>

<blockquote>
  <ol>
  <li>according to law; lawful: <i>the property&#8217;s legitimate owner.</i></li>
  <li>in accordance with established rules, principles, or standards.</li>
  </ol>
</blockquote>

<p>So, by virtue of their inclusion in the road rules, bicycles are inherently legitimate road vehicles. Clearly Crowlie is riding at is a different connotation: not the legal legitimacy (there&#8217;s no room for argument there) but a more informal legitimacy: just being accepted as normal road traffic.</p>
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		<title>By: Crowlie</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2006/11/03/white-line-fever/comment-page-1/#comment-402</link>
		<dc:creator>Crowlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 03:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/?p=242#comment-402</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Heh, so nail guns work with replies too, I see in your case ;-)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The issue pedaller raises is further in the complex you describe as simply needing more attention placed on developing infrastructure for bicycle traffic. Not to mention seeing bicycles as legitimate traffic both commuting and for other travel, rather than being a proto-pedestrian &quot;fun&quot; pastime.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I wonder how you&#039;ll go, pedaller, if you are pulled over by an officious constable and reply with treadly&#039;s summary? You could always provoke it and make your case in court as a test for bringing the whole issue to light for media and further discussion... It would make great copy on wheels of justice ;-) Ghandi on wheels.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh, so nail guns work with replies too, I see in your case ;-)</p>

<p>The issue pedaller raises is further in the complex you describe as simply needing more attention placed on developing infrastructure for bicycle traffic. Not to mention seeing bicycles as legitimate traffic both commuting and for other travel, rather than being a proto-pedestrian &#8220;fun&#8221; pastime.</p>

<p>I wonder how you&#8217;ll go, pedaller, if you are pulled over by an officious constable and reply with treadly&#8217;s summary? You could always provoke it and make your case in court as a test for bringing the whole issue to light for media and further discussion&#8230; It would make great copy on wheels of justice ;-) Ghandi on wheels.</p>
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		<title>By: Treadly and Me</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2006/11/03/white-line-fever/comment-page-1/#comment-401</link>
		<dc:creator>Treadly and Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/?p=242#comment-401</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well pedaller,  I&#039;m at a bit of a loss to understand what speed limits have to do with where line markings appear, but I&#039;ll run with it. By my reading of the road rules you seem to be barking up the wrong tree on a couple of counts.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;On your suggestion I&#039;ve gone and had a look at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ntc.gov.au/ViewPage.aspx?page=A02207505300940020&quot; title=&quot;Australian Road Rules: National Transport Commission&quot;&gt;Australian Road Rules&lt;/a&gt; at the National Transport Commission&#8212;I presume that is the definitive source.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is how &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ntc.gov.au/FileView.aspx?page=A02304403400800020&quot; title=&quot;Australian Road Rules Intro to Part 10: National Transport Commission&quot;&gt;rule 24&lt;/a&gt; defines shared zones and their speed limits:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;&lt;big&gt;&lt;b&gt;24 Speed-limit in a shared zone&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(1) The speed-limit applying to a driver for any length of road in a shared zone is the number of kilometres per hour indicated by the number on the shared zone sign on a road into the zone.&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;i&gt;Note&lt;/i&gt;   A driver driving in a shared zone must give way to any pedestrian in the zone&#8230;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(2) A &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;shared zone&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; is the network of roads in an area with:&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(a) a shared zone sign on each road into the area, indicating the same number; and&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(b) an end shared zone sign on each road out of the area.&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(3) In subrule (2) (a) and (b):&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;road&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; does not include a road-related area.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;/assets/signs-shared-zone.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;Shared zone signs&quot; class=&quot;alignright&quot; /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Firstly, you are wrong that shared zones &quot;all have a speed limit attached of 10km/h&quot;, although that speed limit is common it may be different depending on what is displayed on the sign. But that&#039;s a minor quibble.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However I do draw your attention to clause (3), and flipping back to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ntc.gov.au/FileView.aspx?page=A02304403400800020&quot; title=&quot;Australian Road Rules Intro to Part 10: National Transport Commission&quot;&gt;rule 13&lt;/a&gt; we find:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;&lt;big&gt;&lt;b&gt;13 What is a road-related area&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(1) A &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;road-related area&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; is any of the following:&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(a) an area that divides a road;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(b) a footpath or nature strip adjacent to a road;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(c) an area that is not a road and that is open to the public and designated for use by cyclists or animals;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(d) an area that is not a road and that is open to or used by the public for driving, riding or parking vehicles.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Shared zones specifically &lt;em&gt;exclude&lt;/em&gt; road-related areas, and off-road bike facilities are included under clause (c).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;According to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ntc.gov.au/FileView.aspx?page=A02204508300760020&quot; title=&quot;Australian Road Rules Parts 11 to 21: National Transport Commission&quot;&gt;rule 242&lt;/a&gt;, what we&#039;re actually talking about here is a &quot;shared path&quot;:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;(2) A &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;shared path&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; is an area open to the public (except a separated footpath) that is designated for, or has as one of its main uses, use by both the riders of bicycles and pedestrians, and includes a length of path for use by both bicycles and pedestrians beginning at a &lt;i&gt;shared path sign&lt;/i&gt; or shared path road marking and ending at the nearest of the following:&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(a) an &lt;i&gt;end shared path sign&lt;/i&gt; or end shared path road marking;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(b) a &lt;i&gt;no bicycles sign&lt;/i&gt; or no bicycles road marking;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(c) a &lt;i&gt;bicycle path sign&lt;/i&gt; or bicycle path road marking;&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(d) a road (except a road-related area);&lt;/p&gt;
  
  &lt;p&gt;(e) the end of the path.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;/assets/signs-shared-path.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;Shared path signs&quot; class=&quot;alignright&quot; /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Indeed this is the kind of signage that I see along the off-road part of my regular route, not shared zone signs.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I can&#039;t find anything that stipulates a speed limit for shared paths, so it&#039;s possible that &lt;strong&gt;no speed limit&lt;/strong&gt; actually applies to shared paths (and there&#039;s a lengthy discussion in that point alone). But at the very least extrapolating the speed limit from shared zones is not correct&#8212;and it certainly doesn&#039;t mean that &quot;if you ride on a shared path your speed shouldn&#039;t exceed 10km/h&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well pedaller,  I&#8217;m at a bit of a loss to understand what speed limits have to do with where line markings appear, but I&#8217;ll run with it. By my reading of the road rules you seem to be barking up the wrong tree on a couple of counts.</p>

<p>On your suggestion I&#8217;ve gone and had a look at the <a href="http://www.ntc.gov.au/ViewPage.aspx?page=A02207505300940020" title="Australian Road Rules: National Transport Commission">Australian Road Rules</a> at the National Transport Commission&mdash;I presume that is the definitive source.</p>

<p>This is how <a href="http://www.ntc.gov.au/FileView.aspx?page=A02304403400800020" title="Australian Road Rules Intro to Part 10: National Transport Commission">rule 24</a> defines shared zones and their speed limits:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><big><b>24 Speed-limit in a shared zone</b></big></p>
  
  <p>(1) The speed-limit applying to a driver for any length of road in a shared zone is the number of kilometres per hour indicated by the number on the shared zone sign on a road into the zone.</p>
  
  <p><small><i>Note</i>   A driver driving in a shared zone must give way to any pedestrian in the zone&hellip;</small></p>
  
  <p>(2) A <b><i>shared zone</i></b> is the network of roads in an area with:</p>
  
  <p>(a) a shared zone sign on each road into the area, indicating the same number; and</p>
  
  <p>(b) an end shared zone sign on each road out of the area.</p>
  
  <p>(3) In subrule (2) (a) and (b):</p>
  
  <p><b><i>road</i></b> does not include a road-related area.</p>
</blockquote>

<p><img src="/assets/signs-shared-zone.jpg" alt="Shared zone signs" class="alignright" /></p>

<p>Firstly, you are wrong that shared zones &#8220;all have a speed limit attached of 10km/h&#8221;, although that speed limit is common it may be different depending on what is displayed on the sign. But that&#8217;s a minor quibble.</p>

<p>However I do draw your attention to clause (3), and flipping back to <a href="http://www.ntc.gov.au/FileView.aspx?page=A02304403400800020" title="Australian Road Rules Intro to Part 10: National Transport Commission">rule 13</a> we find:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><big><b>13 What is a road-related area</b></big></p>
  
  <p>(1) A <b><i>road-related area</i></b> is any of the following:</p>
  
  <p>(a) an area that divides a road;</p>
  
  <p>(b) a footpath or nature strip adjacent to a road;</p>
  
  <p>(c) an area that is not a road and that is open to the public and designated for use by cyclists or animals;</p>
  
  <p>(d) an area that is not a road and that is open to or used by the public for driving, riding or parking vehicles.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Shared zones specifically <em>exclude</em> road-related areas, and off-road bike facilities are included under clause (c).</p>

<p>According to <a href="http://www.ntc.gov.au/FileView.aspx?page=A02204508300760020" title="Australian Road Rules Parts 11 to 21: National Transport Commission">rule 242</a>, what we&#8217;re actually talking about here is a &#8220;shared path&#8221;:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>(2) A <b><i>shared path</i></b> is an area open to the public (except a separated footpath) that is designated for, or has as one of its main uses, use by both the riders of bicycles and pedestrians, and includes a length of path for use by both bicycles and pedestrians beginning at a <i>shared path sign</i> or shared path road marking and ending at the nearest of the following:</p>
  
  <p>(a) an <i>end shared path sign</i> or end shared path road marking;</p>
  
  <p>(b) a <i>no bicycles sign</i> or no bicycles road marking;</p>
  
  <p>(c) a <i>bicycle path sign</i> or bicycle path road marking;</p>
  
  <p>(d) a road (except a road-related area);</p>
  
  <p>(e) the end of the path.</p>
</blockquote>

<p><img src="/assets/signs-shared-path.jpg" alt="Shared path signs" class="alignright" /></p>

<p>Indeed this is the kind of signage that I see along the off-road part of my regular route, not shared zone signs.</p>

<p>I can&#8217;t find anything that stipulates a speed limit for shared paths, so it&#8217;s possible that <strong>no speed limit</strong> actually applies to shared paths (and there&#8217;s a lengthy discussion in that point alone). But at the very least extrapolating the speed limit from shared zones is not correct&mdash;and it certainly doesn&#8217;t mean that &#8220;if you ride on a shared path your speed shouldn&#8217;t exceed 10km/h&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: pedaller</title>
		<link>http://treadly.net/2006/11/03/white-line-fever/comment-page-1/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>pedaller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 21:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://treadly.thingoid.com/?p=242#comment-400</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Please be kind to me, I live in NSW, and here shared traffic zones all have a speed limit attached of 10km/h (ie, no ammendment to the Australian Road Rules). In theory, this means that if you ride on a shared path your speed shouldn&#039;t exceed 10km/h.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please be kind to me, I live in NSW, and here shared traffic zones all have a speed limit attached of 10km/h (ie, no ammendment to the Australian Road Rules). In theory, this means that if you ride on a shared path your speed shouldn&#8217;t exceed 10km/h.</p>
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